Difference between revisions of "Talk:Nyquist Audio Programming"

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<font color="green"> Edgar: Actually, the link I removed (thinking you had forgotten to do so) is *identical* to the one you removed yourself  - "Please do NOT link to the Nyquist manual on the CMU homepage!"  It's up to you but I'd think the link is better removed, as it is right at the top of the page, and your warning on that page about the Nyquist 3 manual being incompatible with Audacity is some way down. I see little on the Nyquist homepage page that is useful, OTOH it is only one scroll down on that page to the v3 manual you don't want people to see. If the homepage had some nice history of Nyquist or something, maybe? </font>
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Edgar: The link confusion was on these pages page was probaly started by me myself. There had been in the beginning a few more links on the "Nyquist Prompt" page, which then seemed to me as too many, so I started to reduce them to a reasonable number by probably deleting the wrong parts so everything was messed up in the end. Sorry for the confusion.
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The link confusion was on these pages page was probaly started by me myself. There had been in the beginning a few more links on the "Nyquist Prompt" page, which then seemed to me as too many, so I started to reduce them to a reasonable number by probably deleting the wrong parts so everything was messed up in the end. Sorry for the confusion.
 
  
 
'''What is really important to know:''' In Nyquist 3.0 the language notation in Nyquist has changed from Lisp, like used in Audacity, to SAL, like used in "Common Music" by Rick Taube. Also the Nyquist manual on the CMU homepage the notation of all example code has changed to SAL, so it cannot be used for Audacity any longer, at least as SAL is not integrated with Nyquist in Audacity (what probably still will need another year if not longer).
 
'''What is really important to know:''' In Nyquist 3.0 the language notation in Nyquist has changed from Lisp, like used in Audacity, to SAL, like used in "Common Music" by Rick Taube. Also the Nyquist manual on the CMU homepage the notation of all example code has changed to SAL, so it cannot be used for Audacity any longer, at least as SAL is not integrated with Nyquist in Audacity (what probably still will need another year if not longer).
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at least until the SAL question is clearified.
 
at least until the SAL question is clearified.
  
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<font color="green"> Also what about our main site:
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<font color="green">Then I will make some appropriate change to the Audacity SF
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{{external|http://audacity.sourceforge.net/help/nyquist}}
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{{external|[http://audacity.sourceforge.net/help/nyquist Nyquist page]}}. As for this Wiki page, I still think it is a mistake to link to the Nyquist homepage without explanation, and I still think people could go there and get the v3 Manual without realising the problem. I think your first paragraph on this page should explain the difference between the Nyquist 2.36  that Audacity can use and the current v3, but that there is nothing to stop someone using the current v3 in its own environment. I would not fully understand this from your page if I did not know it already.    
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There we link to the Nyquist homepage and invite people to download Nyquist i.e. v3, and link to the v3 Manual. Do you want to change both those things? What do you want to say?</font>
 
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'''The same:''' the link to the Nyquist manual (the lower one) must be changed to {{external|http://www.audacity-forum.de/download/edgar/nyquist/nyquist-doc/manual/home.html|http://www.audacity-forum.de/download/edgar/nyquist/nyquist-doc/manual/home.html}}
 
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<font color="green">Gale
 
  
 
</font>
 
</font>
  
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'''ALSO SEE LATEST COMMENTS BELOW ABOUT WRITING YOUR COLOURED CODE COMMENTS'''
 
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'''Edgar wrote:''' In the code template it would also be necessary to let the user specify the text foreground color, because comments must be displayable in a different color than ordinary code. I don't know how much this contradicts the meaning of a template, because if the user can change everything afterwards anyway you don't need a template...
 
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<font color="green">
 
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Indeed, I said that text color was a decision to make, but it's a unitary color through the whole template. The user should not change the template really because as you say it is then no longer a template. There could be an alternative template with different text and background colour, if there is some definite opinion on a good colour scheme. Yellow on blue would be high contrast but not I think very popular....:) I'll do just a black on light pink I think like the old code tags, for the main template. You can suggest an alternative if you wish where the text colour is other than black. There is not much choice though (red and blue are not recommended as they are dead and active link colours), hence another reason for the pink choice. 
 
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If you are talking about displaying a range of colours in the code box like some text editors do for different types of string, that has to be wait to install an appropriate extension that can do that (or before then the user hard codes the whole thing in a table according to the color scheme they want). 
 
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Gale </font>
 
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What I meant is: if you look at the code example in my drafts, e.g.:
 
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http://www.audacity-forum.de/download/edgar/nyquist/nyquist-doc/examples/audacity-wiki/basics/change-volume.htm#3-2
 
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you will see that I use the comments to explain the source code. Therefore
 
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it is important that the comments (the explanations) get displayed in a
 
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different color than the rest of the code.
 
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This must not necessarily be a "free" choice by the user but could also be a second text color predefined by the template programmer, which then can be used e.g. via
 
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<nowiki><comment>...</comment></nowiki> tags by the user. This then still would guarantee a "unified" look of the whole Wiki.
 
  
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<font color="green">I'm not sure if you can write a template that itself has another template inside it, but the user can himself employ, say, the code template then nest another existing template inside it (like the case when the Intro template is used and the external template is used inside that to make an italicised link without the arrow). So we could have a "comment" template <nowiki> {{comment|...}}</nowiki> that just makes another text colour, rather than do it with <nowiki> <font color=""> </nowiki>, or by creating a span in the CSS (so that the user writes <nowiki><span class="comment"></nowiki> to produce the desired colour.)
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I still don't really like blue or red even though it "may" be obvious it should not be a link.
 
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Without looking, I don't know if any of the extensions I was thinking of will produce another colour if the string starts with ";" this is specific to the code language concerned.   
 
 
    
 
    
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Using <nowiki><pre> </nowiki> tags with <nowiki> <font color=""> </nowiki> tags won't of course work as the font declaration will be printed out. To save typing it all out, if you merely copy and paste the source code of each pre class from your page, strip out the <nowiki> <pre> </nowiki> tags and indent the first character, you'll get what you want, and I don't mind if the lines are short and if you don't use blue or red (just change the color code to something else, as below):  </font>
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'''Edgar:''' <font color="red">I'm sorry but I can't read neither the pink nor the orange text of the below</font>
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(if (arrayp s)        <font color="#FF7B00">; IF s is an array [= stereo]</font>
 
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    (stereo-function)  <font color="#0000CC">; THEN use the stereo function</font>
 
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  (mono-function))    <font color="#0000CC">; ELSE use the mono function</font>
 
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<font color="green"> To clarify what I said last time, you could actually type it out and use carriage returns - the background <i>will</i> &nbsp;be retained <i>if </i>&nbsp; you indent the first character after the return. My objection would be if there were long lines (and personally I do not like the dotted border). But you can also use the code template if we make a text colour you like, and if you use "1=" after the pipe so that it does not interpret the code. Typing this:</font>
 
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<nowiki>{{code|1= (if (arrayp s) &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; <font color="#FF7B00">; IF s is an array [= stereo]</font>}} </nowiki>
 
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<font color="green">produces this (note you have to use the non-breaking space code (&amp;nbsp;) to produce extra spaces):    </font>
 
  
 
{{code|1= (if (arrayp s)  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <font color="#FF7B00">; IF s is an array [= stereo]</font>}}  
 
{{code|1= (if (arrayp s)  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <font color="#FF7B00">; IF s is an array [= stereo]</font>}}  
  
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'''Edgar:''' <font color="red">I'm sorry but I can't read neither the pink nor the orange text.</font>
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The problem is, that there probably will be no other solution but plain white or plain black if you want to use colored text. The reason is that CRT and LCD/TFT monitors have different gamma values ('middle' grey on CRT is darker than on LCD/TFT) and the reason why I use blue comments (which, I agree, can be easily confused with hyperlinks) is that beside dark red and dark blue there is no other color that can be read with light grey background on CRT as well as LCD/TFT by all people without problems. In other words: I do not even like my own color choice (blue comments) but I don't know any other solution. Sorry, but I have no better ideas on store...
  
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'''Maybe also important to know:'''
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<font color="green">I am really not keen on a single mix of (1) black with (2) either blue or red. Maybe if it is multi-coloured code (green, red, blue, orange and black or similar) where it is obvious the blue and red cannot be links, it is OK. Also the grey background in code template does not have to be so dark - it could even be white or nearly so. Are these dark violet and dark brown colours any better:?</font>
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In the human eye and the related "visual" brain processing there exist three
 
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contrast values: red/green, blue/yellow, and black/white.
 
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The grayscale of a color image computes as:
 
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<pre>0.33*RED + 0.57*GREEN + 0.11*BLUE</pre>
 
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(I know: equals to 101 percent, what is based on the rounding of the missing digits).
 
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Wether a color-blind person can read your wiki you can test just simple:
 
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Make a screenshot, load it into the Gimp (or any other graphics tool) and convert it to a greyscale image. If you still can read the text, you have won (it's sometimes not-so-easy to judge from a color image, I have fooled myself often enough).
 
  
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(if (arrayp s)        <font color="#6A2323">; IF s is an array [= stereo]</font>
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    (stereo-function)  <font color="#600099">; THEN use the stereo function</font>
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  (mono-function))    <font color="#0000CC">; ELSE use the mono function</font>
  
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<font color="green">I tried this produced by the current "Code" template 
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<font color="green"> Otherwise I think you must stay with black and change the comments to italic: </font>
  
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{{code|1= (if (arrayp s)   &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ; IF s is an array [= stereo]}}
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(if (arrayp s)         ;<I> IF s is an array [= stereo]</I>
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    (stereo-function)  ;<I> THEN use the stereo function</I>
  
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and could read the text perfectly in greyscale. So I think you have to suggest a text and background colour for Code template that suits your monitor.
 
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Thanks
 
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Gale
 
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</font>
 
  
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'''Edgar:''' The problem is, that there probably will be no other solution but plain white or plain black if you want to use colored text. The reason is that CRT and LCD/TFT monitors have different gamma values ('middle' grey on CRT is darker than on LCD/TFT) and the reason why I use blue comments (which, I agree, can be easily confused with hyperlinks) is that beside dark red and dark blue there is no other color that can be read with light grey background on CRT as well as LCD/TFT by all people without problems. In other words: I do not even like my own color choice (blue comments) but I don't know any other solution. Sorry, but I have no better ideas on store...
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<font color="green">
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Gale</font>

Revision as of 18:27, 13 February 2008

Edgar: The link confusion was on these pages page was probaly started by me myself. There had been in the beginning a few more links on the "Nyquist Prompt" page, which then seemed to me as too many, so I started to reduce them to a reasonable number by probably deleting the wrong parts so everything was messed up in the end. Sorry for the confusion.

What is really important to know: In Nyquist 3.0 the language notation in Nyquist has changed from Lisp, like used in Audacity, to SAL, like used in "Common Music" by Rick Taube. Also the Nyquist manual on the CMU homepage the notation of all example code has changed to SAL, so it cannot be used for Audacity any longer, at least as SAL is not integrated with Nyquist in Audacity (what probably still will need another year if not longer).

So there are TWO DIFFERENT links:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~music/music.software.html  - the Link to the Nyquist homepage. I think this should be left as-is because Nyquist users should be given the information, that beside Nyquist in Audacity, there also exists a Nyquist stand-alone version.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rbd/doc/nyquist/root.html  - the link to the Nyquist 3.0 manual with the incompatible SAL notation.
This link should be changed to http://www.audacity-forum.de/download/edgar/nyquist/nyquist-doc/manual/home.html  at least until the SAL question is clearified.

Then I will make some appropriate change to the Audacity SF Nyquist page . As for this Wiki page, I still think it is a mistake to link to the Nyquist homepage without explanation, and I still think people could go there and get the v3 Manual without realising the problem. I think your first paragraph on this page should explain the difference between the Nyquist 2.36 that Audacity can use and the current v3, but that there is nothing to stop someone using the current v3 in its own environment. I would not fully understand this from your page if I did not know it already.



Edgar: I'm sorry but I can't read neither the pink nor the orange text of the below

(if (arrayp s)         ; IF s is an array [= stereo]

The problem is, that there probably will be no other solution but plain white or plain black if you want to use colored text. The reason is that CRT and LCD/TFT monitors have different gamma values ('middle' grey on CRT is darker than on LCD/TFT) and the reason why I use blue comments (which, I agree, can be easily confused with hyperlinks) is that beside dark red and dark blue there is no other color that can be read with light grey background on CRT as well as LCD/TFT by all people without problems. In other words: I do not even like my own color choice (blue comments) but I don't know any other solution. Sorry, but I have no better ideas on store...

I am really not keen on a single mix of (1) black with (2) either blue or red. Maybe if it is multi-coloured code (green, red, blue, orange and black or similar) where it is obvious the blue and red cannot be links, it is OK. Also the grey background in code template does not have to be so dark - it could even be white or nearly so. Are these dark violet and dark brown colours any better:? 

(if (arrayp s)         ; IF s is an array [= stereo]
    (stereo-function)  ; THEN use the stereo function
  (mono-function))     ; ELSE use the mono function

Otherwise I think you must stay with black and change the comments to italic: 

(if (arrayp s)          ; IF s is an array [= stereo]
    (stereo-function)  ; THEN use the stereo function


Gale

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